tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18101458.post2121152169233495013..comments2024-02-16T15:14:36.719-06:00Comments on Wet Noodle Posse: Avoiding the Dreaded Info-Dump with guest blogger Kendra Leigh CastleMJFredrickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06881706931355203700noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18101458.post-61395133907417543762008-03-27T23:14:00.000-05:002008-03-27T23:14:00.000-05:00P.S. I'm off to bed, but thanks again for invitin...P.S. I'm off to bed, but thanks again for inviting me, and for being so much fun!Kendra Leigh Castlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10254059079950439368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18101458.post-31543110396650096302008-03-27T22:54:00.000-05:002008-03-27T22:54:00.000-05:00Thanks, Trish and doglady (cute name!). I had to ...Thanks, Trish and doglady (cute name!). I had to go through denial too, and then got belligerent and was all, "Fine, I'll cut a bunch of stuff out of it, and THEN the world will know that I didn't put anything unnecessary in there! THEN THEY'LL SEE!!"<BR/><BR/>Um, sadly, the grand revelation did not go as planned.<BR/><BR/>Good luck with the revisions! I'm glad I could help! (see Kendra beaming even though she just did an hour and of half of sweaty, wobbly yoga)Kendra Leigh Castlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10254059079950439368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18101458.post-33656246300333834132008-03-27T22:35:00.000-05:002008-03-27T22:35:00.000-05:00I am entirely too paranoid to do a word count on m...I am entirely too paranoid to do a word count on my "crap file!" I too received the dreaded "info dump" diagnosis in a couple of contests. Went through the same denial as my CP, Gillian, and then got smart like my other CP, Marianne, and cut the crap, put it into a file and moved on.<BR/><BR/>Kendra, speaking of files, I have definitely printed this post and put it into a file to refer to over and over again. I love the idea of writing the back story first. And your warning signs are perfect. This was a really great post as I am getting ready to dive into revisions of my novel!dogladyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03392561174583932552noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18101458.post-11943462871075344152008-03-27T21:14:00.000-05:002008-03-27T21:14:00.000-05:00Great post, Kendra. I think we all have or still d...Great post, Kendra. I think we all have or still do struggle with this. My editor says it's just part of pretty much every first draft.Trish Milburnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812010789617982102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18101458.post-90953933797850803862008-03-27T18:13:00.000-05:002008-03-27T18:13:00.000-05:00Imani, when I got my first contest results back I ...Imani, when I got my first contest results back I thought the same things--first off, no I'm not! and then after a couple of days went by it was Oh dear, yes I am! :)<BR/><BR/>Drooling, Marianne? Did I say droolng? You should have smacked me.:)Gillian Laynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15772849187702478349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18101458.post-33941672395661139792008-03-27T17:16:00.000-05:002008-03-27T17:16:00.000-05:00Hi Katey! You do a wonderful job with backstory, ...Hi Katey! You do a wonderful job with backstory, and never leave it in "steaming piles" anywhere in your writing, hee hee. Thanks for coming by!Kendra Leigh Castlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10254059079950439368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18101458.post-57215463909457786562008-03-27T14:59:00.001-05:002008-03-27T14:59:00.001-05:00Thanks, Norah! I'm trying to reform out of the pa...Thanks, Norah! I'm trying to reform out of the pantsing thing too, but it's even harder than not info-dumping:-)<BR/><BR/>Terry, exactly! I love the IV drip metaphor...perfect.<BR/><BR/>Yay, Aunty Cindy rode in! It IS a hard balance to strike (and I actually cut too much backstory from my proposal this time, which my agent had me put back in, so I seem to have developed a certain amount of backstory paranoia), but you'll do just fine with the proposal, I bet. Nobody is going to deny the friendly bandita with the riding crop:-)<BR/><BR/>Patricia, much luck to you! I think as long as we're aware of how we dole out our backstories, we're ahead of the game. I was way worse when I wasn't thinking about it!<BR/><BR/>Marianne, the chopped out words might be akin to buried bodies in a way (in a non-freaky, non-"dude, you are SO going to jail" kind of way), but that 60,000-word file means you're doing something right! And the drool is pretty fun, if messy. Also, your definition of "crapola" has had me snickering for the past several minutes. <BR/><BR/>Esri, you and Marianne are gonna make me go word count my folders o' crapola. I'm all curious now.Kendra Leigh Castlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10254059079950439368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18101458.post-921993993496688002008-03-27T14:59:00.000-05:002008-03-27T14:59:00.000-05:00Kendra, you can always make me LOL. Great post, a...Kendra, you can always make me LOL. Great post, and the warning signs were oh-so-useful. <BR/><BR/>I confess I've probably been more like Esri in this--especially in my first ms., in which something dramatic & life threatening happened right after the first love scene. A CP pointed out that a full chapter (and quite a bit of nonsexual action later), my characters were <I>still</I> in their b-day suits. I ended up having the characters react to that, but thank goodness she mentioned it! I'd totaly had my "writer blinders" on.<BR/><BR/>I never used to think much about my characters' backstory, but now I do, and my characters are SO much more real and human, even to blindered me. But yep, while it's good to sprinkle some backstory in, it's always best not to plop steaming piles of it anywhere. :) Thanks for the smart post.Katey Coffing, Ph.D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/07956310592693937227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18101458.post-13211506409136083322008-03-27T13:46:00.000-05:002008-03-27T13:46:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Sookiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04309019627346019836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18101458.post-3270994958405626792008-03-27T13:27:00.000-05:002008-03-27T13:27:00.000-05:00Marianne: 60,000? That's a fair bit.This is a fun ...Marianne: 60,000? That's a fair bit.<BR/><BR/>This is a fun experiment. I did a MS Word Tools/word count on the "cuts file" from my last completed novel. 10,738. It's still at first-draft stage, but that means I'll be adding stuff. It's unlikely I'll be cutting any more.Esri Rosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12329547309752835833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18101458.post-35039163841439315442008-03-27T13:16:00.000-05:002008-03-27T13:16:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Sookiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04309019627346019836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18101458.post-23828982349255338522008-03-27T13:05:00.000-05:002008-03-27T13:05:00.000-05:00"Write that backstory before you even start"AKA ge...<EM>"Write that backstory before you even start"</EM><BR/><BR/>AKA get to know your characters well. I'm doing this for my current wip. The funny thing is how endless this can be. But when done, you'll know your character better than anyone else will ever want to. Which I'm hoping will lend itself to better storytelling in the end.<BR/><BR/>Wish me luck. I think those warning signs will come in handy.PatriciaWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04572087157439187319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18101458.post-28825668556952585282008-03-27T13:01:00.000-05:002008-03-27T13:01:00.000-05:00Hi Kendra!Another Sourcebooks sister dropping by t...Hi Kendra!<BR/>Another Sourcebooks sister dropping by to say GREAT post! Yes, count me as another reformed info-dumper. In fact, I believe I now tend to go a bit too far in the opposite direction. That happy medium is sometimes hard to recognize.<BR/><BR/>I've also been trying to change my pantser ways and become more of a plotter, but it has been a struggle. Let's see how well I do with selling on proposal rather than completing the entire manuscript. (shudders with fear)<BR/> <BR/>And big waves to my Roser sisters Terry and Theresa!Loucinda McGary aka Aunty Cindyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02217492654108300014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18101458.post-22225477473890150812008-03-27T12:36:00.000-05:002008-03-27T12:36:00.000-05:00I remember a great workshop on beginnings and the ...I remember a great workshop on beginnings and the speaker said, "consider back story as in IV drip, not force feeding."<BR/><BR/>Another hint -- when you're meeting a stranger at a cocktail party, how much of your life do you divulge in the first few minutes? <BR/><BR/>I need to know all the back story for my characters. I need to write all the back story for my characters. But I don't need to put it all in the first 3 chapters of the book. I'm getting better at how many opening pages I cut, but I know a lot of what I'm writing is for me, and the reader doesn't need to know all of it, and certainly not all of it before page 12.Terry Odellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11610682530545306687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18101458.post-66538571390224767852008-03-27T12:34:00.000-05:002008-03-27T12:34:00.000-05:00Kendra, that was a fantastic post. I'm a reformed ...Kendra, that was a fantastic post. I'm a reformed info-dumper, too. I'm also a reformed pantser. I think the modest amount of pre-planning I do now helps me avoid the info-dump, and also helps me judge where/how to reveal dribs and drabs of the backstory. <BR/><BR/>Esri, LOL on your naked orphans!Norah Wilsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01151103954061826427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18101458.post-26502993387080608472008-03-27T11:55:00.000-05:002008-03-27T11:55:00.000-05:00Imani, no worries...it's freeing to come out of th...Imani, no worries...it's freeing to come out of the info-dumping closet, as long as you learn to stuff some of the clutter that comes with being one back into it!<BR/><BR/>Mo, thanks! Yeah, the extra file (or files, in my case) is a great fallback. Much more comfortable than deleting outright sometimes, and I do go back and use some things! Not often, I admit, but occasionally I'm glad I didn't just junk something.<BR/><BR/>Marie, thanks for coming over! Marie is one of my Sourcebooks sisters, everyone:-) I know what you mean about that first book. I just looooved writing it, and thought it was the most brilliant thing ever. But boy was it long. And overwritten. And I was in my heroine's head so much that a lot of the other characters were kinda cardboard-y (like the villain, d'oh!). I also remember making sure I had her two best friends' complete backstories in there too...ugh! But we both seem to have learned our lesson! <BR/><BR/>Hi Esri! I hope the book is widely regarded as "yummy" to read, because it certainly was to write, so thank you. And LOL about the naked nameless orphans. Thank God for first drafts!Kendra Leigh Castlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10254059079950439368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18101458.post-71572454175094110142008-03-27T10:54:00.000-05:002008-03-27T10:54:00.000-05:00Hi, Kendra! Your book sounds super yummy!I have th...Hi, Kendra! Your book sounds super yummy!<BR/><BR/>I have the opposite tendency. My characters seem happy to exist in a vacuum. I can write the whole first draft and realize they have no last names and are naked orphans as far as wardrobes and families go. <BR/><BR/>So that's my challenge, and I've learned to add details and (gasp!) details from the past that round things out, otherwise I would be writing 200-page screenplays. But it sure doesn't happen in that first draft.Esri Rosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12329547309752835833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18101458.post-28290181133143012782008-03-27T10:43:00.000-05:002008-03-27T10:43:00.000-05:00Hi Kendra,Great post! Your comments reminded me of...Hi Kendra,<BR/>Great post! Your comments reminded me of my painfully over-written first MS that topped out at 155,000 words. LOL! Once I realized what I had done and what had to be done, cutting it became almost as much of a high as writing it had been. I learned a lot from that experience, and as a fellow pantser, I will say I've become much more judicious about what gets included. Before every scene I ask myself, does what you are about to write move character X's story forward? If not, don't you DARE write that scene you're dying to write, missy! <BR/>MarieAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18101458.post-19387924380733293852008-03-27T10:32:00.000-05:002008-03-27T10:32:00.000-05:00Kendra,I loved the warning signs, reminded me of a...Kendra,<BR/>I loved the warning signs, reminded me of a certain first book of my own! I'm definitely going to follow your advice on creating a separate file for backstory. When the need arises, I will infodump to my heart's content there. Thanks for blogging for us today!Mo Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13644902211036445323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18101458.post-39647001021956563562008-03-27T10:26:00.000-05:002008-03-27T10:26:00.000-05:00Thanks so much for this timely topic Kendra, you s...Thanks so much for this timely topic Kendra, you said exactly what I needed to hear.<BR/><BR/>When I first read your post I thought, "I'm not an info-dumper." When I got to your list of things to look for I gasped, "I'm an info dumper!" I'm going to spend the day trimming the fat off my current WIP.<BR/><BR/>Imani - a frequent lurker out of the closetAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18101458.post-35737060582276608322008-03-27T10:22:00.000-05:002008-03-27T10:22:00.000-05:00Hi Terry! Thanks! It was interesting (and made m...Hi Terry! Thanks! It was interesting (and made me cringe at my process a little) to actually come up with that list. Because, you know, obviously those are not rare occurrences as I'm chugging along:-) That's definitely the challenge, to pack as much meaning into as few words as possible. But it's doable, if we keep trying!Kendra Leigh Castlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10254059079950439368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18101458.post-66831717248494333362008-03-27T10:18:00.000-05:002008-03-27T10:18:00.000-05:00Oh, thank YOU Theresa, it's great of you to have m...Oh, thank YOU Theresa, it's great of you to have me! Yes, I do think there's an art to backstory, and one which, IMO, most of us only learn through trial and error. I'm sure there are writers naturally gifted at the balance. Sadly, I got passed over on that one!:-) I've had to feel my way and learn. I'm glad those judges slogged through my burgeoning backstory to be so constructive! Because man, looking back, it was looooong.<BR/><BR/>Thanks, Diane! I'm with you...I always have to make a few passes to cut as much as I need to. The last couple always hurt the worst!Kendra Leigh Castlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10254059079950439368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18101458.post-38845123606799602872008-03-27T10:13:00.000-05:002008-03-27T10:13:00.000-05:00Hi, Kendra :-)! Your list of four warning signs i...Hi, Kendra :-)! Your list of four warning signs is excellent.<BR/><BR/>And Theresa's right--plenty of info can be packed into just one sentence. Our readers don't need to know as much about our characters as we do :-).Terry McLaughlinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08557335434947611768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18101458.post-24083883817401602272008-03-27T09:51:00.000-05:002008-03-27T09:51:00.000-05:00It is so easy to fall into this trap of info-dumpi...It is so easy to fall into this trap of info-dumping, Kendra. I did it in version one (of seven) of my latest proposal. You give some great ideas on how to recognize the problem AND how to fix it!Diane Gastonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14770373530197339170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18101458.post-22158269339933020192008-03-27T09:38:00.000-05:002008-03-27T09:38:00.000-05:00This is a great post, Kendra. Thanks so much for b...This is a great post, Kendra. Thanks so much for being here today! IMO, the dreaded info dump is something all authors do at some point or another. When judging contests that is one of the things that can put me to sleep the fastest...and yet if there isn't enough info, then it's hard to feel connected to the characters. It's amazing how much you can learn about a character's backstory in ONE sentence. It doesn't have to be paragraphs or pages of backstory.<BR/><BR/>LOL, Kendra, on the bad guy coming or the vampire staggering forth and your character is standing/sitting there thinking and thinking and thinking...:)<BR/><BR/>Thanks again. I will be checking in later, after I take Mom to the store...<BR/><BR/>Also, don't forget to comment everyeone for another chance at winning the $20 Borders gift card at the end of March!Theresa Raganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15815320170046221853noreply@blogger.com